Andrew McNicol In Conversation with Deborah Weiss

Andrew McNicol ‘In Conversation’ with Deborah Weiss

May 7th, 2025

Susan Dalgetty-Ezra, chair of the London Ballet Circle, welcomed multi-talented choreographer Andrew McNicol to the evening’s conversation. Andrew trained at the Royal Ballet School (RBS) where he won the Kenneth MacMillan Choreographic competition. He completed an MA at Central Ballet’s Professional Choreographic competition and went on to become the founding Artistic Director of McNicol Ballet Collective, as well as undertaking commissions both here and abroad. Susan also welcomed writer and critic Deborah Weiss who would lead the conversation.

Deborah commenced by taking Andrew right back to his early days. Andrew was born in Hull and started dancing locally; his brother was a footballer so clearly dance wasn't a family thing. He went on to gain a place at the RBS. What was that like, asked Deborah. Such a different world from anything I’d experienced before, responded Andrew. His family had no theatre or arts background and in fact really didn’t know it existed. But you go through this lovely leafy Richmond Park and you come to this amazing building. Being at the school was very special because he had gone from a regime of driving around the country to take part in as many classes as possible to suddenly finding himself in a place designed to provide just the sort of education he wanted. It was also amazing to be in a class with nine or ten other boys all interested in dance, when previously there had been maybe just one.

There’s an intensity that comes with dance training, said Andrew, and choreography became a sort of outlet for him – a way to break the rules. The school runs an annual choreography competition which he entered just to get the opportunity to create dance, and one year he won it. You sound surprised that you won, commented Deborah. Well, yes, responded Andrew. He hadn’t entered to win any prizes but simply to create something new. It gave him the confidence to do more and he just loved being in the studio with colleagues making something that hadn’t previously existed. Going on such a journey he found incredibly compelling.

Were you already thinking that was the route you wanted to pursue, asked Deborah. Throughout his training he had thought that he wanted to become the best dancer, but by the time it finished he realised that what he loved most was creating in the studio rather than being on stage himself. At the time there weren't loads of examples of younger choreographers; most seem to evolve into choreography after several years as a dancer. Accordingly, it wasn't until rather later that he realised that choreography could become a career!

Andrew recalled going to one audition after graduating from the RBS. During a break one of the panel members asked whether he was a dancer or a choreographer – his CV showing that he was clearly most interested in and proud of the pieces he had created. That had been a bit of a ‘light bulb’ moment because he realised that choreography was what he wanted to concentrate on, and so stopped auditioning in order to figure out how he might pursue such a career.

An early opportunity was being asked to create some short pieces for the Royal Ballet of Flanders, a great company which he had seen some years earlier. For the first few days, he had the whole company of around 50 dancers in the studio, in Antwerp, which he’d never been to before. Principals, soloists, everybody in between looking at this 19-year-old….. He remembers thinking that this was a bit of a make-or-break moment, a lot of pressure. And a lot of excitement. ‘I loved it. I loved the pressure of it. Often as somebody at the front of the room, whatever it may look like, there's a point where you know if you've got people on board, if they're with you, if they're believing in what you're doing’. And that happened in that moment. It gave Andrew the confidence and the excitement to want to do more. He feels that he learned so much from them, that choreography is an exchange, a conversation. Andrew will always be incredibly grateful for that opportunity.

But very daunting, said Deborah. That mentally you had decided that you were going for it must have shown you that you could cope with that sort of situation. And then the National Youth Ballet contacted you? Asking you to create a full-length ballet? Based on Joanne Harris's novel ‘Chocolat’?
That’s right, replied Andrew, although actually that had been the year before Chocolat, while he was still in school. He had previously danced with National Youth Ballet and Jill Tookey, the founder and director of the Ballet was so incredibly supportive. He remembers going to her house and pitching Chocolat. Andrew had all manner of ideas and Jill had been amazing. They discussed it, looked at the book and referenced the film and its music. At the end she went to her computer, deleted a number of provisional programme entries and input the single word Chocolat….

Then they visited Rachel Portman, who wrote the music for the film, told her that they were contemplating mounting this ballet, and asked how she would feel about her music being used? Rachel was also most supportive, providing some additional music and helping them with rights and other administrative matters. Jill herself had a design background and she designed the costumes, also mentoring Andrew, still just 18, through the whole process. Performed at Sadler’s Wells with a cast of around 45, the show gave Andrew experience of working both with technical elements and a large group of people. A real ‘pinch me’ moment! He absolutely loved it!

So, the National Youth Ballet, then Antwerp, then after that you were commissioned by various bodies like the RBS and English National Ballet School, even the Royal Ballet, I think? That’s correct, responded Andrew.

Quite early on in his career, Andrew had spent time at the New York Choreographic Institute (NYCI). Tell me a bit about that, suggested Deborah.

Andrew said he had never before been to New York and had arrived at night. It was pitch dark and all of the lights were on, and he recalls seeing that skyline and being so excited that someone had paid for him to come to New York to choreograph. And then on the first day going to Lincoln Center and into the studios, walking past all the pictures of Balanchine on the walls. It really was a dream! Wow, he said to himself, this needs to be good!

He worked with dancers from New York City Ballet who, he said, were so incredibly slicks; accustomed to limited rehearsal time and capable of creating new work quickly. For the first day he had prepared a little phrase because he knew he might be a bit jet-lagged, and he wanted something to break the ice. He thought that would take the group through the first day.

They learned it just so rapidly and, looking at the clock, he found it was only 15 minutes into the four hours of studio time! So, what to do next? That's when it got interesting. He didn't have anything further prepared but had these incredible, quick collaborative people in front of him who knew exactly what they were doing.

There's an intensity to those situations and a pressure on which Andrew thrives. ‘You just do one thing and that leads to another thing and so on and so forth…’ He’s very grateful that he got to do that quite early on because that experience – once you get through it – shows you can go into a room and create something. It might not be good; on the other hand, it doesn’t have to be used.

Usually three choreographers are selected for each NYCI session, and it was wonderful to spend time with these other choreographers after the rehearsals. Often older than Andrew they had more experience; he learned so much and built some really important friendships.

He was later asked if choreography could be taught, responding that one can learn the technique and the craft, but probably then talent and instinct has to take over. And, of course, there are practical considerations – steps have to be created on somebody and that involves dancers, studios and expense!

What about choreographing for a school rather than a professional company, he was asked, responding that it could be very different. Professional dancers would usually pick up a routine quickly, whereas creating dance for a school involved more of a learning process.

Deborah was curious to learn whether he would come back the next day and find he had to change some of the previous day’s work. Well, he said, I think I was a little bit in shock, to be honest, because by the end of that first day at NYCI we had created quite a lot of material. The other great thing is the evening trips to a theatre or gallery so I think we might have had just one free evening in that whole two or three weeks – there is not much time to think unless you stay up to 3am! It was a very different kind of experience; not being able to overthink but very much to go with your instincts.

And in that particular context, he said, it's very much about the music because that’s part of their tradition. It's like there's a language that they speak which is very much in relation to music and architecture, and pattern and geometry Once you are able to tap into that, you figure out which language you're all speaking, which, said Andrew, was fascinating and a completely new experience.

You once told me that you realised in New York you could gather dancers together to do smaller, experimental things, said Deborah. And that was part of the inspiration for setting up your McNicol Ballet Collective (MBC). So, tell me a bit about that?

Andrew responded that at the NYCI it seemed that artists, dancers, choreographers and musicians from New York City Ballet and American Ballet Theatre were all coming together very easily and he found that most inspiring. And so when he came back to the UK he did a pilot project to see if dancers would be interested, but also to determine whether there might be donors interested in supporting such a concept. The response was positive, which was exciting, and as there seemed to be a momentum involving more than just Andrew himself he became quite serious about the project.

It has been a fascinating journey building the MBC which celebrated its fifth anniversary this year. And he’s discovered his responsibilities are now so broad, whether it’s administering the MBC or pitching to Directors from companies all across the world. There's real creativity to the work a choreographer must do outside of the studio as well as inside it.

Andrew believes good choreography is essentially a collaborative process. Collaborators help you see something in a different way or from a different perspective, sometimes using a completely different language – so, for example lighting designers tend to talk in language which is perhaps akin to architecture. Costume designers typically talk a lot about colour and its symbolism. And shape as it relates to the form of the body and the silhouette of the costume.

There are so many ways to see the same thing or to read multiple meanings although we're all looking at the same thing. For Andrew, that's endlessly fascinating and makes the work that he creates richer – but also as an audience member, he’s aware of different things which can enhance the pleasure of watching.

In creating a ballet you're really creating a world, not just one ingredient, not just the costume, not just the choreography nor the music. The meaning comes from how those elements relate, how they speak to each other, whether they serve the same idea, and that’s fascinating. And sometimes you don’t see it until the last moment, the day before the show when everything actually comes together. And sometimes a different perspective – on the stage rather than close-up in the studio – that may be when it all makes sense.

Yes, I can see that, said Deborah. Now, let’s take a leap across the Atlantic. A couple of years ago you were commissioned to do a full-length Cinderella for Tulsa Ballet. Tell us what it felt like going to a big company, an established company, being invited to do a full length which is quite a step up for a young choreographer – and tell me what you learned from that experience?

Andrew responded that he had already created a few short pieces for Tulsa Ballet and was familiar with the company. He had been on holiday when the Director rang, suggesting three different stories for a full-length ballet. Andrew replied there was only one in which he would be interested, and that was Cinderella. When they were some way into the production schedule he learned that after Nutcracker, Cinderella was the highest grossing box office ballet. And of course, a lot of companies in America rely on box office funding. So – it had to be a success.

Companies have to invest a lot up front, particularly with a classic like Cinderella. There were all new sets, all new costumes. So in reality the show will stay in the company's repertoire for maybe 15 years to recoup the costs. That’s a really interesting challenge artistically; how do you create something that will feel fresh every time? Here Andrew acknowledged the enormous support provided throughout by Marcello Angelini (Artistic Director of Tulsa Ballet).

Everybody holds a different memory or association with this story – the Disney version, books from their childhood. People love different aspects of it and so the challenge is to give audiences those things that they love about Cinderella and that they expect to see. But there is more to this story. Who is this mythical prince? What is his own story? Why is he deserving of Cinderella’s love? Coming from the UK, with its history of theatre and storytelling, a lot of Andrew’s early works had been narrative driven and it became a great opportunity to bring together everything he had learned from them. The show premiered in 2023 and will probably be revived next season.

Moving back to Europe, said Deborah, you worked with the National Ballet of Portugal on a piece called Upstream, part of a triple bill. And that was an occasion when you were invited back to remount it on a different stage. What had that been like?

At the time Andrew commenced creating the piece the company had relocated temporarily due to building works, to a studio in the centre of Lisbon. And the performance was at the beautiful São Carlos Opera House. He recalled one day walking past the front of the house and noting the advertising for the triple bill – ‘Balanchine, McNicol, Forsythe’. And that stopped him in his tracks for a moment, seeing his name sandwiched between those two choreographic giants. What a milestone in his life!

Where possible he likes to create a piece ahead of time and return, maybe, three weeks before it’s due to be performed. That gives him the perspective and ability to finesse the piece, looking at it with fresh eyes. It just so happened that was the structure of the rehearsals for Upstream. It formed part of the opening program for their theatre which had just been renovated, modern and very different from the São Carlos gold proscenium. And so Andrew took the opportunity to tweak things a little, to fit better in the very different environment.

So back to the UK again, said Deborah. This wonderful new creation called Liquid Life was included in your five-year anniversary celebrations. It would be interesting to hear a bit about this because you commissioned a score, which is very different from hearing a piece of music by, say, Tchaikovsky, and thinking that would make a great ballet.

Andrew responded that he had wanted to commission a score because the work of the MBC has centred on the music and dance relationship. Accordingly, in the summer they had run a project in which guest composers and choreographers had come together in a creative workshop. Composer Jeremy Birchall had mentored the composers and he and Andrew had many conversations over dinner about music for dance and what might practically be achieved. Eventually they agreed they had to put their money where their mouth was and have a go. Happily that aligned with the fifth anniversary of the MBC. And so the conversations became more practical. How to begin? How to get from one idea to the next? How long does an idea last before it’s been properly understood and the piece can move on? It’s absolutely fascinating!

They had four musicians playing live, but part of the score was also pre-recorded as well. Figuring out the technology of what the musicians have in their ear, how they coordinate with the pre-recorded elements, and when they're solo – there are so many technical issues. Andrew admits that he is not the most technical person and it was all a huge learning experience.

And, said Andrew, that sort of illustrates the point about collaborators making me a better choreographer; you move from one idea to the other in a way that makes sense and that contributes so much to the success of the piece.

Are there ever have moments of panic, asked Deborah. Where do I go from here? What will I do with this piece of music?

Andrew responded that although it might be terrifying sometimes, he doesn’t panic because he sees choreography as a joint effort between himself and the dancers. It’s not all about him! He needs their bodies, and the space, and the music, and together they seek the best ideas. And it does gets easier with practise and experience. You don’t have to have all the answers; you need to remain alive to an idea which will sometimes take you by surprise.

In the MBC you don’t always have the same dancers? No, replied Andrew, we work with individuals from all over the world, and one of the choreographer’s responsibilities is to integrate them into a team. This season we had eight dancers and it's crucial that everybody plays their role and steps up to the plate.

The recent MBC programme included Bates Beats, Of Silence, and Moonbend. They obviously had a significance because you wanted them to be on this anniversary programme? Andrew explained that he wanted to reprise the works which had significantly contributed to their development. For instance, Of Silence started as a pas de deux at a Birmingham Royal Ballet workshop – it was then extended into a full piece, and now into this programme. He wanted to showcase how much the company had achieved.

Deborah then asked how far he was planning ahead, and Andrew confirmed that they were, indeed, just finessing the next five-year plan. But a strength of his company was the ability to respond and adapt quickly if necessary, essential in a changing world. Aligning the schedules of theatres, dancers and other artists, securing the necessary funding – all these could be challenging.

Finally, Andrew was asked whether he had a list of stories or of music which he wanted to pursue, replying that he’d had such a list since he was sixteen! Themes which kept coming back to his mind, just waiting for the right company, the right theatre – or the right occasion – to set about the choreography.

In concluding the evening, Susan, chair of the London Ballet Circle, responded enthusiastically that it had been yet another fascinating and insightful discussion. She thanked both Andrew and Deborah most sincerely for taking part in such an easy chat, resulting in a wonderful evening’s conversation.

Trevor Rothwell 09-05-25